So Much Speculation……..

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    • #72897
      AUSSIEMOMAUSSIEMOM
      Participant

      About estrangement. What causes it; what sort of person would choose to do this to parents, families, to themselves; what is the mental makeup of a person who chooses to estrange from their families, so much speculation about something that causes so much pain in people’s lives. As I read the news of today on the internet, not the newspaper, as the chemicals from printed matter can create inhalant issues for me, I wonder if the world was always a harsh place, that humans have always treated other humans so negatively yet, there is the opposite, the positives that come too, from many sources, uplifting, giving hope, it’s like black and white, good and bad. I am left feeling that the digital age has brought so much of this negativity into our lives whereas before, we were left with other sources such as family to interact with, now it’s the whole world at our fingertips, but an isolating world at that.

      What is the make-up of someone who could choose estrangement? Do they feel isolated by their behaviour? Do they ever regret it? Do they continue to blame others, a parent, a mother, siblings, a family as a whole that they’ve walked away from? Perhaps estrangement as a societal issue is still too new and those who would seemingly qualify for valued commenting are still sorting through this increasingly divisive issue.

      Once the estrangement has been set and the years go by, where does this leave those who’ve lived through it? And any answers again, will be speculative. Assumptions. So much emotional pain given to a mother, a father, to parents, siblings who experience loss as well. And yet, does the estranger feel loss too?

      It is not something I understand, I think it ends up with loss on both sides, the estranger and the estranged. It is like a huge block of ice that settles over a family, silences a family, divides it forever. Where is this going to lead us in the years to come. So much grief.

      Personally speaking I see a genetic make-up that has compromised a child’s life and yet, I cannot allow any more pain into my own. Estrangement is nothing but tragic, for both parties.
      Sorry for the rambling, I know there are not any answers other than what we’ve chosen to believe and hope for the future. Regardless of how this site is seen by negative forces, there is a very positive aspect to this, which is the good in all the bad that has happened in people’s lives. Sheri, this is one of the positives. I like to think this still exists.
      Aussiemom

    • #72928
      BrokenHart2BrokenHart2
      Participant

      Hi Aussiemom
      Im no expert but I am an only child who will never understand how family members can be estranged for years! I remember hearing about siblings who were estranged for years and couldn’t understand because I wish I had a sibling to grow up with!! I know in my case that it was my ex and his wife manipulating my 2 ED’s since they were very young and I also believe that today’s therapists may not have the experience of advising our adult children because I remember my oldest daughter telling me that her therapist advised her to cut out the people in her life who were toxic. Her therapist, (one sided), gave my daughter that advice. Between her father and hagmother conditioning her since she was younger, her therapist giving her “expert advice”, I guess the sacrifices, love, nurturing, blah blah blah things we do as mothers are “cut out” of our children’s core. I also think thst genetics are definitely a major contributor as to how a person is made up. My daughters father is a major narcissist and my youngest daughter is a narcissist. It was “me,me,me” all the time. I thought my only hope was my oldest daughter because she was full of love and compassion for others. however, I guess they all got to her too. Im not a cancer that had to be cut out of my daughters lives, I’m a loving mom who never had a shot with all the bs flying around. I am so grateful to you and the other members as you have responded to topics that i have posted and your words are comforting and make sense to me in a world that doesn’t anymore. I wish I had the answers but I am slowly going through this dark hallway looking for the light. I know it’s there! Many hugs to you 💕

    • #72933
      healinghearthealingheart
      Participant

      Aussiemom,
      I spend a lot of time wondering about this. I thought I had my other children figured out, as their estrangement is based on a significant other or a health/mental health aspect. When it happened with my youngest, and given her life, I was stunned.

      And though I will never know the real reason, I know that it is wrong to treat anyone the way we’ve been treated – and then to treat your mother this way… I was thinking today that I am actually ashamed of my daughter and the person she has become. Someone who I had always been so proud of.

      In those moments that I feel overwhelmed, I am also thankful for everyone here. There are some positives and this community is a big one!

      I also want to thank you, Aussiemom, I find your posts and responses warming and insightful. There are many people here that I wish I could meet – and just give them a big hug!

      ~HealingHeart

      • #73862
        beloveddaughterbeloveddaughter
        Participant

        Healing heart.
        I HEAR YA.
        i am totally ashamed of my son. The deceit and cover ups and showings off to others. GAG

    • #72956
      AUSSIEMOMAUSSIEMOM
      Participant

      Consider it a virtual hug. Something I never thought to say….someone once said, his son had ‘friends’ all over the place because of his internet connections and I scoffed at that…snorted….how can you possibly have a friend you’ve never met…well, as usual, eating my own words….!!…..here it is…here are friends, regardless of not meeting them, not knowing where they live, feeling so heartbroken for them when reading about issues such as many deal with here. I, too, was raised an only child, BrokenHeart. Being adopted from the hospital into my parents home, I was loved and cared for in a very special way…mind you, my English mother saw to it that I was never to grow up spoiled….but I was always treated with respect and I respected my parents, my extended family so no, I do not understand how children can treat parents so ruthlessly. I’ve said that here before as others have. HealingHeart, as with others here, you have so much courage and not only that, but you’re your own advocate in what you are doing with this Protection Order. Your decision is an inspiration. Fighting an injustice, there is no question but that has to be done. I do think genetics play a large part in the estrangement. Therapists, holy cow, I have no faith in what some can do, telling a patient to leave a parent because that parent is toxic…just plain stupid….did the therapist know or counsel the parent…the therapist only has a one-sided view and telling a client your mother, your father, your parents, are toxic….cripes. One thing I’ve learned through this is that being bullied, being treated like dog poop, wasn’t for me but it took me coming here to find that out. This site is the best therapy yet.

      We are all formed by our genetic blueprint. We are also formed by the environment in which we are raised. Where the disconnect comes is what I do not understand. Maybe others here have some thoughts as to this issue becoming so commonplace. I have my own genetic blueprint watered and fertilized by a strong background of respect from my parents. What my daughter has, who is adopted is her own genetic blueprint, and my former stepdaughter, she has hers although representative of her father more than her mother, I’d say…neither could not cope with my straight forward way of dealing with things. And obviously more things that frankly do not interest me to know. So, what is causing this phenomenon. It’s like catching the flu.
      Aussiemom

    • #72993
      AvatarMJmom
      Participant

      Yes, AussieMom we are truly all friends here. Hard to believe sometimes. My daughter told me what an awful person I am and everyone hates me. It isn’t just her!! That kind of shook me up, but I do receive validation here. I still shake my head in wonderment. Even if I had a solid why, it wouldn’t change or excuse what has happened., I watch these adult offspring forever using the internet to validate themselves. They seek out negativity. They cluster like a swarm of mutant bees.,One’s story is always more horrific than another’s. Instead of trying to solve they resolve to get even. Spread hate and then gloat on their success. Misery loves company and they have an army. Their websites don’t ask how they can manage only damage. It is frightening to think if we become incapable, what will we do to protect ourselves. Guess we won’t know until it happens., Mjmom

    • #72986
      PepperPepper
      Participant

      “I do not understand how children can treat their parents so ruthlessly “ that is it in a nutshell for me Aussiemom. I have given your post a lot of thought since I read it yesterday because I too often ruminate and wonder at the apparent ease at which these AC appear to be able to turn their backs.
      I am English my parents were very typically middle class and we were brought up quite strictly which of course led to natural rebellious behaviour in our late teens. For me as a child or teenager in the 60’s they were often horrified by me and I came in for a lot of criticism as I tried to break away. I had what you could describe as a “ love hate “ relationship with my mother who could be very mean and was extremely selfish. We had our rows we had times when things were strained but I would never ever have turned my back on them or denied them their brandy.
      What ever happened to working things out ? Accepting an apology or showing forgiveness?
      I have thought that it was perhaps because I bent over backwards the other way, always talking to my children always showing forgiveness and above all being honest about my mistakes something my parents could never do.
      It backfired big time as I was then an easy target for all the wrongs in their lives and if couldn’t fix it then that was my fault too. I am only estranged from my eldest ED but it has affect my relationships with my other children .
      What is the hardest thing for me to get my head around is the re writing of history the lies the cruel cruel dismal of any good that I did. In the early years I was so stunned and desperate that I apologised and grovelled for crimes I had never committed and I strongly believe I just handed her power to hurt bully and abuse me. The burning question is why would anyone want to do this to anothuman being let alone your own mother ?
      Still pondering!!
      Pepper 💖

    • #73004
      AUSSIEMOMAUSSIEMOM
      Participant

      Mjmom, You have a son who is respectful of you, I have a son who is respectful of me. He’s at the other end of the telephone as I am to him, we don’t see each other all that often, he lives a distance away from me. And while we don’t always agree on life’s happenings, if I become incapable, there will be the respect he’s shown others all his life, and has always been, towards me. I don’t think you need worry about this. I would make your affairs very clear and as to why you’ve made any decision you have, very briefly, that those who have not been included will know the reasons why, without having to go into any accusatory explanations. I am appalled that there are websites that support the anger and immaturity exhibited by people. I don’t go on FaceBook, or any social media, I’m not interested in how other people live their lives and I’ve always said, email me personally, tell me about your life and I will respond, otherwise, I haven’t the time to sit and read what is sometimes fictionalized accounts of other people’s lives. And certainly to act like cluster flies around a site of anger is emotionally unhealthy for these younger folk. To grow into maturity, this sort of thing holds people back. You will know when ‘ it’ happens, Mjmom, and if you don’t, rest assured that your son will do for you as you would do for him. With respect. I also have two male cousins as executors on my will. And they do keep in touch with me, one in particular. This is a backup for me should anything happen otherwise. My husband is not proactive in advocating for anyone effectively, even for himself. He does not like confrontation, does not know how to handle it, does not make ‘executive decisions’ so I am out on a limb, by myself, dependent on what may happen to me as I grow old…and I’m there already.
      Aussiemom

    • #73030
      AvatarMJmom
      Participant

      Yes, I do have a wonderful son. He doesn’t want to confront or make waves. He takes more than his share of abuse from his sisters. It was hard for him to hear he is beneficiary of all of our affairs. He has never asked or wanted to be involved in this disfunctional family. To do it all over again I would have aborted my two daughters. There I said it and meant it. Please understand it has been like razors under my nails for far too long. It destroyed my life and frayed my future. Only a masochist would think otherwise. Mjmom

    • #73041
      AUSSIEMOMAUSSIEMOM
      Participant

      Love your honesty Mjmom.

      My two are adopted, as was I…however, my son’s background appeared to be more stable than my daughter’s background of which we were told barely anything about other than her birth mother did not get along with her own mother…and there it is…I thought, okay, we’re different people, she’ll be raised in a different environment, and then came the teenaged years, when both kids melted more into their genetic pot and less into the environment in which they were raised…and there is was….a repeat of what her birth mother had done to her mother. My daughter has a very sweet nature but there is something in her genetics that has allowed for behaviour that has caused me a good deal of pain, caused bewilderment on the part of others, and hurt on the part of my son. He loves her as I do but……….we truly do not understand or comprehend. And I think of her, how does she relate to what she’s done….and hopefully it’s not repeated in her two girls. I don’t think it will….

      Being honest with your feelings is a big step. This is an aside: I’ve just lost a close friend who was dying of cancer. I’d phone up and ask ‘how are you?’ ..’.fine’, she’d say…when I knew she wasn’t…what I should have asked was, ‘how are you managing’ which I did the last time I spoke with her three Sunday’s ago…and she said ‘not well’…..I said ‘that’s an honest response’. She died six days later. I sometimes think we’re so afraid to admit to ourselves our feelings, maybe for feeling disloyal, maybe because as parents or a mother, we’re not supposed to feel that way…if we don’t speak of it, it’s in our minds but not out there for public consumption. But I wonder how much good this does us. And too, sometimes it takes a long time to sort out how we really feel, when we finally admit how we feel, I think it’s a great weight lifted off our shoulders…at least being honest with ourselves…it does feel good.
      Aussiemom

    • #73055
      AvatarMJmom
      Participant

      Thank you AussieMom
      After posting my last response, I thought how people will say how awful!! Nothing is that bad. But in reality to me it is. I regret being put in a position of having wasting 40 years of my life. Were there happy times? Yes, but they are in a fog. A fog of regrets and sorrow. Every child deserves a Mother who loves them: As a Mother you deserve respect and appreciation. When that is shattered beyond repair, the what if’s become a constant question and needs to be addressed. Unfortunately, we have to live with the consequences. Mjmom

    • #73076
      delilahdelilah
      Participant

      I admire your honesty Mjmom. I feel very differently about both my estranged AC, and the behaviour and treatment by both have been different.
      My ED I have gone through phases of quite seriously wishing I had never had her, and can fully understand your feelings.
      Normal isn’t it, to wish with hindsight that we could have somehow avoided brining someone into this world who would bring us such incredible pain?

    • #73095
      SimplifyPleaseSimplifyPlease
      Participant

      There are some real gems of wisdom here, AussieMom! THANK YOU for starting this thread. And some brave honesty, too, MJMom. We all think ‘awful’ thoughts from time to time. It’s perfectly understandable, especially in circumstances like yours.
      For me, Pepper’s words sum it all up: I, too, ‘bent over backwards … always showing forgiveness and above all being honest about my mistakes’. Sad, isn’t it, how little it was appreciated …
      Right now, I’m coming to terms with the fact that my two eldest children have grown into people I don’t like. How could I possibly like ANYONE so cold-hearted and ruthless, let alone one of my own offspring?

    • #73125
      AvatarRainbow
      Participant

      Mjmom, “After posting my last response, I thought how people will say how awful!!” I don’t think your response was awful at all. No judgement calls here on this site. I sometimes say to my husband, I wish ES was never born then we wouldn’t be living with this awful nightmare. It’s like having a toothache that never goes away. Pepper, my husband and I bent over backwards giving our ES the best life we could, we worked hard and sacrificed and yet all that we did was never appreciated. Our feelings are neither right or wrong. They are our feelings. We’ve all been deeply hurt and our hearts are scarred.The abusive words still sting. SP, I don’t like my ES either and I often wonder how he could be blood of my blood. A little light humor, ladies. When my ES was born, the infants were brought to their mother’s several times during the day. Well, one day the nurse handed me what she thought was my baby. I looked down and said this isn’t my baby. “Perhaps I should have accepted and kept that one. Maybe the mistake could have turned out better. LOL Although we have never met, we are all friends here trying to hold one another up and move forward in the journey. This truly is a safe haven where we can open our hearts and souls to people who truly understand the depths of our pain. Love and Hugs to All Rainbow

      • #73863
        beloveddaughterbeloveddaughter
        Participant

        Rainbow,
        I felt freed when you mentioned that you sometimes talk about how you contemplate how nice it would have been if your EC had never been born.
        I have thought this often, but have been scared to say it outloud.
        I tell you, none of the good times can ever overshadow this pain.
        NEVER.

    • #73155
      wkgmomwkgmom
      Participant

      Great thread AM. I think that you have hit on something very key in all of this and that is the genetic make up of people. My son’s bio father didn’t get along with his parents either, in fact he hadn’t seen or talked to his mom in 3 years when we met. I insisted he start a new relationship with her when I became pregnant because I was all about family and I honestly didn’t think there was anything a parent and child could do to one another that would result in never speaking again, I was 20 and very naive. But, looking back on those times, the reasons he stopped talking to her in the first place, she was too honest about the life he was leading and made some comments he didn’t agree with.

      I think that you have a unique take on this as your children are adopted so you are aware, probably more so, how genetics play a role. However, even those parents who know both sides of the family and family history are also facing this phenomenon. Why???

      I think the social media aspect is a big part. I also think somewhere when a child attends school, they become somehow indoctrinated into a mindset that is very foreign older generations. The older generations were not raised as “victims” and I think right now the atmosphere on college campuses and even in high school there is a teaching/promoting of “victim-hood” mentality. Everyone seems to be a victim of something and it’s almost a competition of who is the biggest victim…… identity politics…….. how big of a victim can you be?

    • #73164
      AUSSIEMOMAUSSIEMOM
      Participant

      Wkgmom, I, too, feel that society is promoting victimhood. If you don’t cut the mustard going to school, then maybe there is a reason for it, society says, let’s look for it….ah, a parent bearing down on you to do better in school, you’ve been skipping school, well, that parent sure isn’t going to go along with that….Your parent (in my case me, the mother) was expecting too much from my daughter, I was paying for private school (day student) which had a good teaching reputation, not long after my daughter started at the school I was called in by the head mistress….my daughter was not picking friends that would be in her best interests (John Candy’s niece, actually), then later, my daughter was not working up to her level of intelligence (she has a high IQ) and then the drugs came….so I was a mother who was dealing with issues that I knew were difficult but they were also an indication that my daughter was having difficulties herself. Mild mannered as a child, gentle, fey, yes, she was that, kind, she was an honour student at public school. And then, one day in her early teens, after my requesting she wear snow pants to go skating one day, she blew at me. She screamed at me. It was like Dr. Jekyl/Mr.Hyde. Huge pent-up anger spilling out at me over a pair of snow pants…but it wasn’t the snow pants, really, it was something else. And then her personality began to change, her respect for authority figures, diminished (teachers, etc) and she slipped into being someone whom I didn’t know and I kept hearing the social worker’s one comment, which was all she made when we took this little child home with us at 3 1/2 months, from the CAS, ‘her birth mother was pretty, ‘her birth mother did not get along with her own mother’. So, yes, in some ways I may see this genetic issue more clearly but in other ways, I have no record to say, that’s like so & so in the family, he/she was just like that….

      I generally don’t have time for or spend much time speculating. To me, it’s a waste of time with assumptions being at the head of it, simply because, in speculating, in making assumptions, we are coming from the basis of our own perceptions. Therefore, speculations may be coloured in attunement of that. And, I keep an open mind when ‘experts’ formulate opinions but based on what….collective information, I would hope, collective commonalities, their education and experience added to this…but I am careful to not speculate on what the ‘experts’ have to say unless I feel it has some sound background attached to it.

      I do feel there are commonalities involved in estrangement and I believe Sheri would have seen it given how many people she’s connected with over this issue. I don’t know that it can be put down to any one thing, other than the person who chooses it may not be strong enough in their individual strength of character and somewhat easily swayed. I do believe that blaming others is part of that and an immature personality would do so. And being a victim, of which my daughter would be, having been sexually molested as a child without my knowledge. How she has survived this I don’t know. I do feel she is a very strong individual in herself now, but I wonder how managed to deal with this in the reconstruct of her life. A report, a book, secondary to the initial issue of estrangement in trying to sort out situations and people who are more vulnerable to doing something like this, might be of benefit. But of course, it would be one person’s opinion whoever wrote the book or report. Collectively, it would give a better dimension. One thing is certain, unless you have abused your child physically and/or emotionally, apologizing is feeding into victimhood and lowering you again in your child’s already altered opinion of you, as their parent. We can preface anything we say by saying ‘no-one is perfect’ and as a parent, neither was I, but then, neither was the child, grown, either in this estrangement.

      Speculation is just so much hot air, look at how the media goes at it night after night about politics and so on….facts work better but this isn’t a fact-finding mission trying to understand estrangement. Or is it? I think it could be of value with all that has been observed and read here on this forum, it would be a good basis to start. This isn’t a place where judgement is given, if it is, it’s gently said. So, are there commonalities others would say are typical of estrangement?
      Aussiemom

    • #73633
      AvatarIttybitty
      Participant

      The estranged child doesn’t take estrangement lightly. It is a very big and difficult decision that is not made over night. They do mourn the loss of the parent/parents they chose to disown.

    • #73639
      PepperPepper
      Participant

      Ittybitty
      I am sure there are some children for whom this is accurate. In my case and many others I am not so sure.
      If it was the case then I wonder why there is the need to tell lies make very cruel verbal attacks and continue to engage in this for many months or years? If the need was to disown for good reason then surely just walk away with dignity.
      For myself and many others here there is plenty of evidence of PAS and other people influencing our ED. Many of us have other children who consider us to have been good loving parents who do not deserve to be cast aside and are equally baffled by the actions of their siblings.
      I do of course there are exceptions when children have suffered physical or mental abuse but I am clear that is not so in my case.
      Pepper

    • #73641
      DottyDotty
      Participant

      ittybitty – I have to agree with Pepper, and disagree with you. You say ‘the estranged child …’ not SOME estranged children. I don’t see any mourning of loss in my son’s behaviour. In my case, it was overnight. One day we were speaking and the next day we weren’t. Over night my son sent me five emails with quotes and links justifying his reasons for believing I am a narcissist. He then emailed this to his sisters warning them to cut me off too, or they would become trapped in my web of narcissism.

      He thought I was influenced by my mother, whom he also believed is a narcissist. He wanted me to cut myself off from her, and go on some journey to revisit his childhood with him. I said I wasn’t going to do this, so I received a barrage.

      I did my best, and I loved my son. I still do. I am sorry that I am not the mother he wants me to be, but I am who I am.

      Perhaps your experience is different. I’m sorry if it is.

      Dotty

    • #73642
      AUSSIEMOMAUSSIEMOM
      Participant

      IttyBitty, you sound as though you are speaking through personal experience and may be coming from the estranged child’s place. If so, I’m sorry you’ve had this experience; if not, a differing perspective is always welcome here.

      However, I would have to agree with Pepper’s comments, if someone chooses to estrange themselves from family, better to walk away with some sense of dignity towards both parties. But to badmouth and slander a parent overtly or covertly, which many parents here have experienced, doesn’t add up to supporting your comments. Everyone has a different experience with estrangement. If the choice to walk away is a painful one, which I’m sure in some cases this is true, why not discuss this with a parent and both come to the conclusion that space is needed between them, for now, for the future. It does not have to be forever. But counselling for both in terminating a relationship would be a healthier way to go about it for both parties.
      Aussiemom

    • #73645
      Avataremily38
      Participant

      Itty Bitty, I’m curious to know more about your statements above.
      Are you able to tell us more? It seems such a broad, sweeping statement
      to make that encompasses all estranged children/adults. Speculation might
      allow us to believe it ‘could’ be true in this case or that.

      But, after reading posts here with story after story painfully told, the
      idea of mourning, regret-filled, sorrowful estranged children over the
      decisions they have made just doesn’t ring true.

      It would be strangely supportive were this the case. That parents and offspring
      alike felt the emptiness of estrangement loss.

      The thousands of stories here, as well as those never told by readers who do not post,
      do not reflect yours.

    • #73653
      AvatarFairydust
      Participant

      Dear Ittybitty, it sounds like (I may be wrong) that you have made the choice to estrange from your parents. This site is filled with agonized parents that have lost their children through estrangent in some way. I also would love for you to share your viewpoint in more detail. We are all in a living death on this site and many barely function. Our hearts are broken, we cannot function, we don’t know how to move on in life. So Please, please share. Did you go to counseling with your parents? Did you write your parents a letter of estrangement? Did you discuss your struggles with other people? Has the relationship with your parents been a struggle for a long time? If so, why? You see, you can’t just come on this site and drop such a bomb of a statement in the middle of everyone else in deep grief without sharing a bit more. We are the walking wounded. And, perhaps we can help you reconcile as we share with you our heart breaking stories. Maybe another view point can help you.
      Lovingly,
      Fairydust

    • #73654
      Yellow RoseYellow Rose
      Participant

      Ittybitty, the parents on this forum seem to have the opposite experience than you write about. I’d love to hear more about how you came to feel the way you feel.

      In my experience or opinion, it has become a fad that “toxic” parents (or other people) are brushed from our lives, or banished, and the result is we never learn to set boundaries or “deal with” difficult people in a positive and effective way. I often advocate for self-protection – a learned skill that involves boundaries, communication, and understanding of relationship dynamics (among other things). Life is difficult and we have to learn wisdom and assertive skills and behaviors that serve us well – and serve others well. So just labeling someone as toxic or narcissistic and cutting them off can be self-limiting to our own growth. Granted, sometimes we have to do this in cases of real abuse but the parents on this forum are parents who care, who get depressed and cry, who self blame, when their EC tells them how toxic and narcissistic they are.

      One of the journeys in life is learning to resolve or accept how life is, how our childhood was, how our adulthood is, how to cope with adversity, and to move on to know ourselves and love ourselves. All humans have flaws and no human is the perfect parent, although many of us on this forum certainly tried.

      There used to be a popular saying that I’ll try to paraphrase. Something like: the character traits we find most objectionable or irritating in other people are often the same traits we have. This old saying may not even be correct but my take is that it tells us to look within ourselves and fix ourselves first. No longer is this even advocated, it is just toxic or narcissist parents by my own definition, then cut them off!

    • #73666
      KindSoulKindSoul
      Participant

      Ittybitty, your choice of words are…telling. You say it’s a “very big and difficult decision” to estrange from a parent. Most decisions that affect 2 or more people end up with the persons involved having a reasonable discussion before irretrievable decisions are made. Most of us estranged parents on this site were blindsided by this estrangement of our adult children and had NO IDEA something like this was coming. Also, most if not all of us estranged parents thought the only reason to completely estrange from a parent would be physical abuse. Personality traits, quirks, and all the different aspects that make us a human being, even a flawed human being, don’t justify being completely kicked out of their adult child’s life. It raises the cruelty to another level when it involves being cut off from the gradchildren. What these estranged adult children don’t seem to see (because they are blinded by their resentment, cruelty and self-centeredness) is that by removing the grandparents from the grandchild’s life, they are showing their children the blueprint for how to treat a parent when you grow up. How could it not? What a loss for everyone involved.

      When you say the adult child estrangers “mourn the loss of parents they chose to disown,” that’s like killing someone and then saying you’re sure sorry their dead.

    • #73669
      PepperPepper
      Participant

      I just want to add that I am sure there arehurt broken children who for serious reasons have walked away from mothers and fathers. I met these children over my career working with some very damaged families .
      Here on this site I have met ( virtually) and read the heartbreaking stories of parents who ,yes ,made mistakes but were ready to accept these to listen to their adult children’s complaints. Parents like myself who would walk over hot coals to meet their children half way to discuss the problems, to apologise for mistakes and who are full of grief and pain for their lost children.
      I almost lost my mind when my ED decided I was a “bad mother “ and this forum has saved me and given me a purpose to go on.
      When I read the post today from Ittybitty it temporarily sent me spiralling back to that place of self doubt or questioning what was so awful about me that my daughter would choose to mourn for me rather than sort things out and have a life with me.
      I think Ittybitty must be or have experienced estrangement and be suffering.
      Pepper

    • #73684
      AvatarMJmom
      Participant

      Just a question that is really bugging me….. Is Ittybitty an estranged parent or the EC? The comment seems so far removed from a parent that has suffered. My ED went from loving literally within 1 day, a creature with disrespect and vile behavior. Not my choice, but my sanity, chose to leave her. Not the other way around. Trolling seems so unlike our refuge!! Mjmom

    • #73691
      rparentsrparents
      Keymaster

      This site is for parents. Same as usual.

    • #73694
      AvatarMJmom
      Participant

      Thanks Sheri! I know my offspring trolls this site. She stalks me and this is a medium I wouldn’t be surprised her input of victim. When I read 99.9% of heartbreaking stories, it is disturbing to hear words of such differences that sets or could set some parents into a spiral of self doubt. Sorry for questioning it. Love Mimom

    • #73697
      rparentsrparents
      Keymaster

      MjMom and everyone,

      I can’t check everyone’s honesty. But it will become obvious quickly if someone lies to get in.

    • #73713
      AUSSIEMOMAUSSIEMOM
      Participant

      Perhaps a further explanation from the person who posted under the pseudonym of IttyBitty, might allow us to understand where this person was coming from.

      It was also my thought that the poster had been estranged from family as well. It is good to have varying opinions and perspectives. Mine is not the only one in estrangement and while it reflects how many parents here feel, hearing another perspective allows for greater understanding of how an estranged child (grown) may feel. However, what also struck me is that the justifications for estranging from a parent and family remains. When one feels justified in their actions, I honour their right to do so as I honour myself but then would say, we have differing opinions on this.

      However, I would ask those who choose to estrange from a parental relationship, was there consideration for the emotional impact on how a parent would feel. I don’t feel that estrangement is worked out in a reasonably healthy manner emotionally, if there is such a thing. As difficult as it is on both the child and the parent, there is a point of honour at which a grown child may consider how the parent would feel, not just how they were feeling. Therapy together to me is the only solution to a disengagement in a relationship, say what you need to say, allow the other person to be heard as well, then if there appears to be no resolution, go your separate ways.

      However, the emotional pain for the mother, father, both parents, remains. While the estranger may walk away from a parental relationship, the parent does not. This is a phenomenon of today’s society that is an example of the dissolution of family life, of respect for others and an unfortunate display of how the internet can influence others needs, whatever they may be.
      Aussiemom

    • #73718
      AUSSIEMOMAUSSIEMOM
      Participant

      Sheri, anyone can pose as they wish to in becoming a member of any website forum. You do your best in accepting what people place before you as the truth and you do the best you can to monitor the site closely and with compassion. You have done and continue to do a great job with this site. If IttyBitty is upfront and honest as to why this comment was posted here, let he or she come forward and explain what lies behind the words posted. .

      I am aware from something that was said on my elder granddaughter’s Twitter page several years ago about the task she was given to basically stalk someone on the internet. That is a broad statement, from me and was my interpretation of what she posted. It may be off-base on my part. And I know nothing of Twitter, FaceBook or any social media format. I looked up my granddaughters because I wanted to have a sense of them as they were growing into adulthood. I had not seen them since they were small children. This granddaughter, I sensed has a strong moral focus to injustices in society. And not without reason, I’ve had a sense that my former son-in-law has had an agenda of negative issues towards me (the card with one word, whore, being an example although he would dispute this as having come from him). Therefore, there has been one other occasion here some time ago, when I’ve found a posting which has allowed me to question if I am being followed here on this website. However, as I have said here before, I do not post anything that I would not say directly to my daughter or any family member connected to her.

      I understand IttyBitty’s comment as coming from his or her heart. I felt that. To me, it felt that it was a reflection of their own behaviour however in justifying a decision that indeed, may have been difficult for them to make at the time and upon reflection, perhaps remains so. But it may not have been or is a reflection on me as the parent from whom my daughter and her family chose to estrange. It is upon themselves and their own choices they’ve made in life.

      I have reached a place in my life where whatever people say about me, while it may hurt and I may feel helpless to defend myself I need to look at this, if my actions towards another do not deserve the reaction taken towards me, part of that reaction is based on the person taking action against me. It is two different people’s approach to a problem on which we disagree. I’m not who my daughter portrayed to others but to her, I was. That’s her problem, it is not mine. As humans we are seldom able to see our own issues as clearly as we see those of others.

      If this person named above wishes to come forward and share further information with us here, fine, if not, let’s let it go. Sheri can’t do the impossible. She does a great job in what she does here and with compassion towards others.
      Aussiemom

    • #73734
      AvatarEasyStreet
      Participant

      AussieMom

      I’ve put a lot of thought about what kind of persons genetic makeup that makes them feel test estrangement is an ok thing to do. I have heard that genetics do play a part in this behabior.

      I our case, our ED Cut her mother in law out their lives 8 years ago preventing the mother in law out of her one and only grandchild s life. She later cut out. The one and only uncle out of the child’s life. It was a back and forth cuttiff. When he was enough , he was allowed back in until his next infraction. Must have happenedc 5 times over 8 years. Now he too is permanenty cut off. Thw father in law , line the uncle , back and forth cut offs , now he too us cut off.

      Now our second time around with her. The first time around, when I said something wrong , she would break our visitation Time has punishment .

      Her grandmother before he deliberately estranged herself from her beloved sister who they shared for years a mist wonderful relationship. . One silly misunderstanding over a meal. That’s all it took . My mother in law Died never speaking to her sister for the rest of her life. She did this with no regret. No sadness. . That was it.

      Narcissism , vindictiveness, self absorbed , intolerance, no Empathy , no family values , victimhood , selfishness and no condcious are the most common characteristics of those that deliberately inflict this egregious pain on the very ones that love them the most. For the exception of physical, substance and. verbal abuse, there’s not one single reason that’s acceptable for a child to do this to people who loved them. Their pain, embarrassment, humiliation has long reaching effects on the exchanged victims. Because the family left behind are the Victims. My husband suffered a heart attack, stress, anxiety , my stress caused me to gave black outs, I can no longer drive. I have panic attacks, extreme anxiety and I’m sure some depression. All at the age of 71 and 67. Our ED not only did this once but twice. Her selfishness and vindictiveness has long tentacles. It affected brother , sister in law, niece nephews many aunts , uncle and Many cousins . She simply dont care. She’s the victim ,

      ” I’m not going to be treated this way, “I’m”. gone. “I’m” doing this for “ME”. It will make “ME”feel better.
      “i” deserve better than this. ” I’m “. going to make them suffer . This is “MY ” life . “I” deserved to be happy. It’s all their fault. They are toxic to ME . It’s all about ME. ME. ME. . .

      py. .

    • #73737
      AvatarEasyStreet
      Participant

      Ittybitty. I’m sure there are those that made the decision to leave , mourn and are very sad. . I believe these people who leave because they were actually abused , physically or mentally or whies life was deeply impacted by substance abuse. Theses are the only LIGITEMENT reasons why anyone should leave.

      We all know those that are abused are a small fractions of those that perpatrate thus heinous act on all those that loved them. Those that choose to leave for any other reason Than abuse , were self absorbed, victimhood , no empathy, no conscious, vindictive on and and no. There is not ONE acceptable reason why any pbarent shoukd suffer this. Estrangement is ABUSE of the worst kind

    • #73739
      BeeHere4MeBeeHere4Me
      Participant

      Awesome AUSSIEMOM,

      You raised and delivered any point that I could make …. perfectly. Well said!

      Mjmom,

      You crack me up, LOL! Offspring best describes one who has no desire to be your child. So she enjoys feigning the victim, oh geez!

      “The estranged child doesn’t take estrangement lightly. It is a very big and difficult decision that is not made over night. They do mourn the loss of the parent/parents they chose to disown.” ~Ittybitty

      IttyBitty, this is new information to me.

      1. Will you explain how some parents are deceived with communication that states otherwise?
      2. If not over night, then how long is their decision process?
      3. Do they involve the parent at all?
      4. What behaviors do you equate to mourning the loss of a parent they choose to disown?

      The only part that coincides with my son’s estrangement is that it was his choice to disown me. But hey, at least I am open to understanding. 🙂

      🐝

    • #73769
      TheblueskyThebluesky
      Participant

      From observing , replying on this site beginning almost five years ago, the dynamics of age, geographics, culture, socioeconomic circumstance, spousal influence, loving devotion, sweet memories, horrible memories, etc, as expressed tens of thousands of times here, and here we all landed, with the same burning questions that we can sort through all the logic in the world to answer, some of it individually can make sense, but for me, there can be no explanation, other than a child was a abused, that , in my circumstance, that a grown man, yes a 33 year old man, could choose to do this, is that he just simply does not care. I don’t wonder anymore why he doesn’t care, what could have possibly caused him to be so cruel, or that he chose to follow in the steps of his selfish, hateful father, and toss the love shone him all his life by me to this point aside? It doesn’t matter to me , the whys about him any longer. I have searched my soul, my actions, my every freaking move since the day he was born, and this was not warranted, needed, should never have been.

    • #73701
      PASclubPASclub
      Participant

      I have made it my mission to figure this out, and I believe internet influence plays a major role.

      Case in point. Tonight… I see a post on an INTJ (MBTI type) female FB group from a woman (not sure of age, but sense early 20’s) says…

      “My mother is an ESFP. I’ve never gotten along with her, but I want to start. I understand her, but she misunderstands me even when I attempt to explain myself clearly and even in multiple ways. We have almost nothing in common. What can I do to help our relationship?

      To which some responded “Is not speaking in anyway an option? Perhaps miming, or semaphore. I feel it’s genetically encoded in them to misconstrue everything that’s said to them…never mind cuz they do this with silence too..ugh”

      From OP, “This is true, they do read into things beyond reality to a flaw. It would honestly be difficult for me to go on without talking to her. She has been an excellent mother even though out personalities are laughably different.”

      To which I responded ” If she has been an excellent mother (short of personality differences), you are fortunate. I accepted my mother (and father) weren’t perfect a long time ago. It’s a part of growing up. You have your birth in common, and probably more with some thought. Keep trying. So many people love tearing relationships down. Unless she is intentionally trying to hurt you, don’t listen.”

      Even after this, there was this retort from another on the group”She fucked it up from the beginning and woke up when i was like 22. I didnt give in. We.have polite if forced interaction she wants more but I just dont feel like it.”

      I believe we are dealing with a digital hate campaign. Just Google “What do I do if I don’t get along with my mom” and the 3rd listing is this… https://www.bustle.c**  (6 signs your mother is toxic). And then they are off researching toxic moms which gets completely distorted from the original problem.

      We are in a war, Moms – a war against those who LOVE to undermine primal relationships because our loved ones got sucked into a vortex of mother hate.

      One of the turning points in our maturity is understanding that our parents aren’t perfect. For me, it took some time because my father was GOD in our household yet proved later to have major faults. Neither parent was affectionate, but I did get to a point where I examined their upbringing to understood why and forgive them.

      Now… it’s much easier to find “evidence” that your parents are toxic, and it’s perfectly OK to ghost them.

      So much work to do to combat this assault on primal relationships! I take great pleasure with challenging these young people to question the wave of disrespect that is so clearly anti-parent (ESPECIALLY ANTI-MOM). I pull no punches here, and if I can help one person to think twice about throwing their parent away, it eases the pain of losing my daughter.

    • #73774
      TheblueskyThebluesky
      Participant

      From observing , replying on this site beginning almost five years ago, the dynamics of age, geographics, culture, socioeconomic circumstance, spousal influence, loving devotion, sweet memories, horrible memories, etc, as expressed tens of thousands of times here, and here we all landed, with the same burning questions that we can sort through all the logic in the world to answer, some of it individually can make sense, but for me, there can be no explanation, other than if child was abused, that , in my circumstance, that a grown man, yes a 33 year old man, could choose to do this, is that he just simply does not care. I don’t wonder anymore why he doesn’t care, what could have possibly caused him to be so cruel, or that he chose to follow in the steps of his selfish, hateful father, and toss the love shone him all his life by me to this point aside? It doesn’t matter to me , the whys about him any longer. I have searched my soul, my actions, my every freaking move since the day he was born, and this was not warranted, needed, should never have been.

    • #73810
      rparentsrparents
      Keymaster

      PAsClub,

      It’s true. I recently talked about this on the forum and also on the radio. It’s very troubling to me, and many.

      I removed your link because I don’t want to send traffic.

    • #73811
      PASclubPASclub
      Participant

      That’s fine, Sheri, and I’m glad you are addressing internet influence. I see it all the time.

    • #73813
      rparentsrparents
      Keymaster

      I’m glad you are addressing it too! Those quotes you included… it’s so harsh as well, the way people (strangers often) glom on and say such horrible things. Ugh.

      What you say about maturity and realizing parents are imperfect humans… it’s so true. Almost everyone has some good beef about their upbringing, but as you say, they were doing what they knew to do.

      Hugs,
      Sheri

    • #73814
      rparentsrparents
      Keymaster

      Aussiemom,
      Thank you for your words of support. I am doing my best (though imperfect and in an imperfect world).

      Hugs,
      Sheri

    • #73815
      AUSSIEMOMAUSSIEMOM
      Participant

      Last I ‘looked’ Sheri, I wasn’t so perfect myself.

      I find it interesting that having opened the door with a comment, poster, ‘IttyBitty’ has not come back to us in explaining further why he or she feels estranging from a family and parent took careful thought. And yes, I can see that for some, this not taken lightly yet in many cases it is an easy way out to blame a parent, particularly the mother. PASclub, I’m pretty naïve about what ESFP is meant to be ?? but I’m glad someone is trying to place a different perspective on websites such as these. I also know from my own imperfect perspective that once a perspective is formed in our minds that it is often hard to hear another person’s perspective on the same issue. And really, aside from facts, all we have are our own perspectives. Defending this perspective I would ask, aside from abuse, why would you do such a thing? To target “toxic mothers” is gender-abuse. Mothers are easy targets in their compassion towards a child they’ve raised and loved. And I think the estranger knows this deep down, mothers are easy to blame, to reject because of that love and compassion felt for their child.

      The responses here are not unkindly, but firm in their reality.
      Aussiemom

    • #73828
      AUSSIEMOMAUSSIEMOM
      Participant

      Am I allowed to ask what Reddit is on here? I know Yellow Rose has mentioned this site before. I’ve learned that an ACoN is an adult child of narcissist(s). I’ve learned Reddit has a side bar of rules, that it is a support group for people raised by toxic, self-absorbed or abusive personality traits parents(s) which may be exhibited by those with cluster B personality disorders. I’ve learned that narcissists are not allowed to post on this site and that posters are to refrain from posting uplifting messages to others. No advocacy for putting soap in a child’s mouth for swearing ( noticed a post of four years ago which has the word f*ck repeatedly in it). There is a list of very good rules about posting but…and that they are not professionals who can diagnose BP.

      So, I know now what I’ve done wrong with my kids. I always told the young ones that if anyone used the word f*ck (and they were young and it was before it became part of my vocabulary, which I don’t use often, I admit) they’d get their mouths washed out with soap. Well, guess who did it at the supper table and got caught…my son. And while I was washing his mouth out with soap and he was gagging, the other kids were hooting with laughter. Now, my son is still talking to me to this day but I know I have fit into the site’s diagnosis of a ACoN…a child of narcissist(s). Now, how’s that for my mornings education. Not posting uplifting messages? That sort of caught me…what do they mean. And if they’re not professionals and they cannot diagnose narcissism how can they run a site and espouse to have knowledge of NPD? What’s the point? What is the point of this site?

      Cripes, it’s no wonder estrangement is the latest fad amongst those grown kids who are having difficult issues. Just tune in to whatever site you want and you have a diagnosis, an assumption, that because your parent may complain about you or object to your behaviour, or am I being silly here, that they are a narcissist. Now, I’m really worried. I hope my son will not read this site and then never speak to me again because he had his mouth washed out with soap. Mind you, no-one else pulled that stunt until my stepson one day at the age of 19 told me to f*ck off. And as his father seemed not to mind or care, aided by throwing a pair of running shoes at me and trying to beat up my son, I saw a lawyer two days later. But that’s another story.

      I don’t think parents have a chance in heck of surviving the estrangement once it’s chosen. All the years spent grieving, wondering why, feeling depressed, heck, those years are better spent tuning into sites like this so that you know where some of this psychobabble is coming from and then buck up, figure you’ve lost your child because you’re a narcissist and get on with your narcissistic life. Without your child in it.

      Pardon my frivolity. I’m on my way to the local psychiatrist to get myself properly diagnosed. Imagine my ignorance all these years.
      Aussiemom

    • #73830
      rparentsrparents
      Keymaster

      Dear Aussiemom,

      You’re awesome. (I hope that’s uplifting!)
      😍

      Sheri McGregor

    • #73831
      PepperPepper
      Participant

      Wonderful Aussiemom 😂😂😂😂 thank you !!
      X

    • #73842
      Yellow RoseYellow Rose
      Participant

      Aussiemom, thanks for the uplifting chuckle! You made my day. I suspect my ES learned to call his family narcissists from that website, and me and husband chuckled about this because his behaviors are the same, if not worse, than the family he claims are all narcissists. ES wasn’t talking in “these poor folks” type of way, he was spewing vitriol and “how much the family has harmed me” way. At one point, several years ago, a bunch of positive people got banned by a new moderator from that forum that you mention, Aussiemom. Positive responses got deleted by the new moderator and there would be further responses asking why that post got banned as it was positive and uplifting. The old moderators were not willing to control the new moderator and things got ugly. The forum that you mention was where I learned the JADE thing years ago, don’t justify, argue, defend, explain. So, at one point it was full of helpful skills and perspective and people tried to support some very young adults who were struggling in what seemed like dysfunctional situations. Later, it became unhelpful and hurtful. And when I heard our ES saying this ‘you all are narcissists” crap, I knew it was not the ES’s original thought. LOL! Our poor ES was just late to the play and too arrogant to recognize that we parents had a clue.

    • #73834
      healinghearthealingheart
      Participant

      Aussiemom – you are a hoot! 😂😂

      I don’t understand how I could be narcissistic and still have time to do all the things I did for my ED. I rarely had time to do anything I wanted. How many of us watched educational cartoons or Disney movies because that’s what the kids wanted to watch? Did we go to Chuck E Cheese because we liked the food? And Saturday bowling with 50 lanes of kids is always a peaceful place. Come on…

      I agree that we don’t have a chance once their decision is made. Someone here once said that if you wouldn’t allow someone else to treat you that way, why would you allow your child? (I’m sure it was worded differently.) And I agree. My ED especially has crossed a line and burned bridges. Very, very sad, but it is what it is.

      ~HealingHeart

    • #73884
      DottyDotty
      Participant

      My son is convinced I am a narcissist. He quoted that site to me, with examples of all that I did to justify his judgement. He even sent the link to his sisters with a warning. Some of the examples were twisted, and some were untrue.

      His fiancee had a photo book made of their first four years on their lifestyle block. On every page there was a picture of me and or my husband. I commented on the photos.. , ‘Oh I remember that day …’ ‘Gosh, that was a tricky job wasn’t it! I remember holding the building paper in the howling wind…’ ”I remember planting those trees, and look how much they have grown…’ Yes, I commented on the photos of myself, because there were many of them because we were there helping so much which is why we were in the photos. This was twisted around to me ONLY commenting on the photos of ME (untrue), which meant I am only interested in myself = I am a narcissist. There were apparently ‘millions’ of other examples, but he only managed to tell me about three (twisted and untrue), and said there were too many to list.

      The last and final straw was the day he called me up to ask me to drive the two hours to his block to help him do levels for the build site. Of course I obliged. Helped with levels in the howling wind … learned a lot. Went home five hours later. He told me someone was interested in how an untrained person could drive a bulldozer and do such accurate levels with no engineer … I piped up …’Let alone teach your mother how to do the levels!’ I thought I was giving him credit for his ability to teach his aging mother such an accurate skill, but he blew up at me right there, and told me that I ALWAYS turn things around onto myself. I claim. I claim the credit, I claim the glory. I NEVER acknowledge their skill, but turn it around to be about myself. Apparently his fiancee had noticed and had been pointing this out. Then the thing about the book and ‘millions of other times’ were thrown in my face. Gobsmacked. Completely. The entire project on the property had NOTHING to do with me, (although we had financed it, helped with it, advised, planted, watered ….). So stop claiming, I was told.

      When I greeted him in a loving way at my uncle’s funeral last weekend, and thanked him for coming, I was claiming. He told me, ‘It’s not your place to thank me for coming.’ Claiming. Again.

      I need to join you AussieMom and get correctly diagnosed. Maybe we are all narcissists! Maybe we are just pretending this grief and feelings of loss. Maybe it’s all an act and we are secretly joyous about losing our precious children.

      Victim mentality is where it’s at now. Teachers can’t tell kids off, parents can’t reprimand, even bosses can’t tell their workers to just get on with their job, arrive on time and do what’s expected. That’s bullying. I know there are bad parents, teachers and bosses, but there is also this thing called resilience, and without it, this damaging victim mentality is just around the corner.

      Love,
      Dotty

    • #73901
      AUSSIEMOMAUSSIEMOM
      Participant

      Dotty, it sounds as though you’ve been through a lot of stress with someone like your son. “Claiming” is a new word for my vocabulary now…is it like stealing the spotlight away from someone who has claimed it already??

      I don’t understand the reasons for estranging from parents. I guess I’m dumb. As IttyBitty said, making a decision to estrange from a parent did not come without a lot of forethought and I can believe that. After all, if your parent(s) didn’t beat you physically, didn’t abuse you emotionally, then it would take a good deal of thought to zero in on just what you didn’t like about that parental relationship. And frankly, if the personality mix isn’t there once the child grows up, maybe it would be better to talk about it, explain on both sides, leave off the accusations and blame, say you have a personality conflict and I guess then, make a decision to try and understand this from both sides of the fence. But where does hurting a parent/mother factor into it? I wonder. But I do agree, walking away from a relationship is not easy.

      We are all narcissistic to one degree or another, it’s a means of self-survival. But when someone is not consciously aware of their behaviour insofar as how it affects other people, then I’d wonder if the narcissistic traits we all have to one degree or another, haven’t tipped more towards a pattern of behaviour that could be termed narcissistic. It’s easy to throw that term around these days. And Dotty, when teachers have to wear Kevlar vests in class, you know something is out of whack in our society today. When a kid calls the police to report her parents because they took away her digital device, as was in the news awhile ago, then you wonder where society is heading. When I child reports to her teacher that her father spanked her and the authorities were called (in CA) and he had to prove he was a good parent not an abusive one, you have to wonder.

      Today’s way of talking things out is a good thing. Throwing accusations and blame at another person, particularly a parent who raised you, if you haven’t been abused is not and I don’t get it. I guess I need to make another appointment to get myself properly diagnosed. I’ve been living with self-delusion all these years. I don’t kid myself, I’m forthright in my manner of speaking at times and I know that hasn’t been acceptable to two people in my life who objected to it but then they were the ones who were badmouthing me behind my back, making accusations, so heck, I don’t appreciate having someone do that. Do it to my face, I’ll hear you, but then I expect you to hear me out too. That part didn’t happen. So, I remain, an ‘outsider’.
      Aussiemom

    • #73913
      PASclubPASclub
      Participant

      And yes, I can see that for some, this not taken lightly yet in many cases it is an easy way out to blame a parent, particularly the mother. PASclub, – Aussiemom

      Easy?! No way! Until you’ve walked a mile in my shoes, please do not assume it has been easy. i have to go to work, but I will pick this up tomorrow.

    • #73915
      KindSoulKindSoul
      Participant

      Dotty, I think this must be a “thing” with these estranged kids of ours because I now remember that my ES used to say that about me, too. The fact is, you can take something completely out of context, twist it, and then present it to others as something that does sound like self-centeredness when that’s what your goal is.

      What I’d love to know is why these estranged kids of ours spend so much time, effort and energy hurling hateful emails, texts and words at us in an effort to keep us the heck away as if having a mother that would walk over broken glass or burning coals just to “fix” things is the worst burden they could possibly bear. What a waste of energy! You have a Mother who loves you, cries for you, tries everything to fix things with you–Boo Hoo, you are really to be pitied, alright. NOT!!! You’re utterly ridiculous!

    • #73919
      PepperPepper
      Participant

      I agree with so much that has been said on this thread I can’t mention everyone individually!! I guess I need a diagnosis too because one of the things I was accused of when lying in the emergency department with a heart attack is that I was attention seeking !!
      I can’t understand the way that it appears so many of theses AC just decide after years of love support and attention that the relationship is no longer worth a jot. No negotiation no compromise and no empathy. It’s incredible and I have often said that I would never ever treat my worst enemy in the way I’ve been treated. It also appears to me that they take this moral high ground of judgement and criticism. They of course never do anything wrong or make any mistakes and are so much better than their awful narcissistic mothers and fathers. As someone said part of maturing is recognising that your parents are human beings who have their own issues and occasionally fall short.
      In my case I can never be forgiven , I have been judged and found wanting and now I am to be punished for the rest of my life.
      I am gradually reaching a point of disgust and will never ever allow myself to be treated like this again. My job is done and I know I did it to my very best.
      Love to all
      Pepper 💖

    • #73945
      DottyDotty
      Participant

      AussieMom – that’s very good –

      “Claiming” is a new word for my vocabulary now…is it like stealing the spotlight away from someone who has claimed it already??

      Oh you made me laugh!

    • #73954
      SimplifyPleaseSimplifyPlease
      Participant

      This thread must hold the record for the number of posts, AussieMom! 55 when I last checked and climbing … Humour, insights, encouragement, empathy – its all there.

      I used to come out in a rash whenever I saw the word ‘narcissist’, but I’ve learned to laugh instead. Like ‘toxic’ it’s just a silly buzz word most people use without understanding what it really means.

      As for that dreadful Reddit group, there should be limits on free speech if that’s where it leads. We have a big issue here in South Africa with hate speech, which is about to become a criminal offence if it incites harmful behaviour (including psychological harassment).

      What a crazy world. So much time wasted by young people navel-gazing and brooding about the past when they could be doing something useful to tackle really big issues affecting folk far worse off than they will ever be.

      Interesting that the group was once more constructively moderated, YellowRose. Just goes to show how important it is for someone well-informed, balanced, objective and sensitive to steer things in the right direction when they show signs of veering off track. Someone like you, Sheri!

    • #73960
      rparentsrparents
      Keymaster

      On that note (from SimplifyPlease), let me just say that we have not yet heard back from ittybitty. I hope she is not feeling alienated. Sometimes, in the flat environment of words on a screen, things are not as they seem. I hope ittybitty will explain her thoughts.

      It’s good for us all to remember that there are people from a variety of circumstances who join this forum. Some may be coming from a situation of parental alienation and don’t feel their kids have come to understand that. They may even know that their sons/daughters are, in fact, hurting and caught up in manipulation by another parent and are trying to keep the peace somehow. Sometimes there are complexities.

      This is not meant to chastise anyone at all. I don’t think anyone stepped out of line here.

      Hugs to all,
      Sberi McGregor—moderating from away from home right now and, today, with a sick family member.

    • #73962
      HopefulHopeful
      Participant

      I’ve come to the conclusion there is no rhyme or reason to estrangement. It’s a crazy phenomenon that we’ll never have a definitive answer for.

    • #73967
      AvatarMJmom
      Participant

      I feel responsible for perhaps alienating ittsy. I questioned perhaps trolling on this site. Her words struck a chord of what my own ED was capable of saying. Circumstances are different for all of us. However I did ruffle a bit when one mother said the post made her spiral out from her situation: We are all on the mend and pouring fuel on a simmering fire is likely to cause inner tormoil. I apologize for jumping to conclusions. Hopefully we will hear from her to give our heartfelt support. That’s why we are here. I also am undiagnosed of mental disturbance per ED. Hope there is a cure!!!! Mjmom

    • #73976
      AUSSIEMOMAUSSIEMOM
      Participant

      Mjmom, sometimes if we don’t laugh, we cry.
      I could not have been so frivolous in my approach to this issue in the earlier days of my daughter’s estrangement. It was very painful for me when it happened but over time and many years I just had no more energy to put to it, to the drama my life entered into after it happened, even though it was silent within myself. The self-punishment is and shouldn’t be, the worst part of it.

      I suspect the original posting was heartfelt on the part of the poster but I also feel it was ‘from the outside’ but maybe not. It has allowed for some frivolity and hopefully an easing of tensions.

      SP, you are a hoot with the counting. I hope everyone here has found some levity in all of these postings and I’m not speaking lightly when I say that…. sometimes frivolous ways of looking at something helps in alleviating emotionally painful thoughts and remembrances.

      And Sheri, your life, like ours, has its worrisome times, you’re great to keep this site going.
      Thanks everyone for contributing and allowing us to hopefully find some silliness in all this seriousness.

      Heaven only knows, I’m sure I’ve been labelled by my daughter and former stepdaughter as being something or other….take your pick…obtuse, controlling, bossy, self-centred, a wh*re, hmmm, what else..I think I’ll just take my dogs and go to bed….this thinking wears me out.
      Aussiemom

    • #74300
      AvatarPhoenix
      Participant

      Aussiemom. I’ve only just picked up your posting.
      It’s honest and I feel the same as you.
      Over the years I have been part of this group you have really helped me through my struggles with my family problems. I have found your valuable experiences and perspective with my issues so helpful.
      Honestly, some times I could have stayed hidden away.
      Just having this group has given me the courage to keep on going, we help each other just by being there.
      This group is unlike most social media follies.
      The world has gone slightly crazy when you see a group of teenagers walking or eating together on their phones making sure everyone knows where they are and who they are with…. they don’t actually speak to each other. I’ve seen toddlers in push chairs with iPads. It’s nuts!
      Take care
      Phoenix

    • #74334
      Avatarfreshstart
      Participant

      This thread has been very enlightening. Thank you! It certainly shows the complexity of estrangement. The contagious levity is much appreciated and seems to ease the ache in my heart. Laughter truly is the best medicine.

      It is so easy to get discouraged and beat oneself up over all of this. The fact that nearly every one of these posts is one I can relate to through my own experiences and the thoughts I’ve had about them tells me we are on the right track when we look at this as a cultural disaster.

      It soothed me when I read all of this because, somehow through all this feedback it is ridiculously clear that we are not the problem. Something has happened to our society that needs fixing but quick. Otherwise, the next generation is going to be ghastly to be around.

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